Mel B – African Americans in AA History Interview -10-21-1978

(0:00 – 0:21)
from Akron, Ann Arbor, and Detroit. With me here today is Edward Bledsoe, one of the
first black members from Akron, Ohio. Ed, we’re making this tape for Nell Wing down in
New York to be placed in the AA archives.
(0:22 – 0:45)
Is that permissible with you? Yes, it is. Would you give your full name, Ed, and spell it
out? My name is Edward Bledsoe, E-D-W-R-D-W-B-L-E-D-S-O-E, Bledsoe. And then how
old are you, Ed? I’m 64 years old.
(0:45 – 0:53)
And your birth date was? November 1912. November 1912. Where were you born?
November 19th, 1912.
(0:55 – 1:07)
And where were you born? I was born in Sylacauga, Alabama. Sylacauga, Alabama. And
then when did you come to Akron? I come to Akron in 1921.
(1:08 – 1:25)
And your occupation, you worked at Firestone, in the plant at Firestone? I was a rubber
worker at Firestone. I drove tractor for Firestone. And you, how many years did you work
for Firestone? I worked for Firestone 39 years.
(1:26 – 1:53)
From 1921 until 1960, or 70? No, I was laid off for a while, and from 29, I started, and I
was laid off for about six years, and I went back in 38. And then you finally retired?
Finally retired from Firestone with 39 years, sir. And what year was that you retired? That
was last year.
(1:54 – 2:13)
Last year, 1966. Yes, the current date is October 21st, 1978, and this evening, we’re
going to attend an anniversary of the City Park Group here in Toledo. Now, you’re
married, and your wife’s name is Cora.
(2:14 – 2:28)
Was she from Alabama, too? Yes, Cora is from Alabama. And you came up together then
from Alabama to Akron? No, I met my wife in Akron, Ohio. She was going to Kent State
University when I met her.
(2:28 – 2:45)
Oh, I see. Now, what is your sobriety date? April of 19, 1947. And so, you were one of the
first black members in Akron.
(2:46 – 2:58)
I’m the second oldest black member in AA in Akron. And who was the other person? Faith
McMillan was the first. It was a couple weeks before you? Couple weeks before me.
(2:59 – 3:33)
And how did you happen to come in AA? Well, my wife, she worked down in private
family, and she knowed that I needed AA, so she happened to overhear her mistress
talking about AA to Mrs. Market. So Mrs. Market, my wife got in touch with her, and they
come out to see me, Mrs. Market, Jenny Market, and Ed Barnes, my sponsor. Mrs. Market
was also an AA member? Yes, she was also an AA member.
(3:33 – 3:38)
One of the older AA members there. And Ed Barnes was one of the older members. Yes.
(3:39 – 3:52)
So they came out to see you at your home. Were you living then at the same place? No, I
was living at 763 Euclid Avenue at that time. Incidentally, your address now is 918
Packard Drive.
(3:53 – 4:11)
918 Packard Drive in Akron. So what did you think? Had you asked for AA or anything, or
was this just your wife’s idea? That was just my wife’s idea at that particular time. I didn’t
think alcohol had the best of me.
(4:11 – 4:23)
I knowed I needed to quit drinking so much, but I didn’t think I needed AA. Did you know
anything about AA before that? No, I didn’t. Had you ever heard of it? I never heard of it
before that.
(4:24 – 4:33)
Until Ed Barnes and Mrs. Market called and Jenny Market came out to see me. I see. Are
they still living, by the way? Ed Barnes still live in Akron.
(4:34 – 4:42)
I don’t know where Jenny lived at. But that was their very first contact there in 1947.
That was their very first contact.
(4:42 – 5:08)
Did they tell you about this other fellow? No, they didn’t know about him, but Sister
Ignatia, they took me up to the hospital and got me a shot. And Sister Ignatia, she talked
to them, and now they got Faith McMillan to come up to the hospital and meet me. How
long did you stay in the hospital? Well, I was only in there for a short time.
(5:08 – 5:16)
We didn’t have no beds for Colette at that time. Oh, they didn’t let you go to the
hospital? No. I wasn’t hospitalized.
(5:17 – 5:26)
I see. At that particular time, we didn’t have any beds. You couldn’t go to that ward that
they had for alcoholics at St. Thomas? No, you couldn’t at that time.
(5:27 – 5:36)
I didn’t know that. But you went to another room then at St. Thomas? Yes, I went to
another room. And so you were there.
(5:36 – 5:51)
Did Dr. Bob come to see you? Yes, Dr. Bob, he’d come see me and tell me this story. And
he brought Dayton Smith from Kent, Ohio. He was one of the old timers in AA.
(5:52 – 6:05)
He’d come up and see me. So I come to realize Dayton Smith’s story was the same as
mine. His drinking caused him trouble just like mine did.
(6:05 – 6:15)
And he told you his personal story? Yes, and so on. Is he still living? Yes, he lives in
Dayton, Ohio now. He owns restaurants down in Dayton.
(6:15 – 6:29)
I see. Was he a black member? No, he was a white member. Now then, after you got
started in AA, did you have any trouble after that? No, I didn’t.
(6:29 – 6:39)
You never had another drink? No. Ed Barnes took me to my first meeting, which was on
the Arlington Street. They call it the Arlington Street Group.
(6:39 – 6:53)
And at that particular time, there was one Jew and one Negro in AA, two Negroes in AA. I
was glad to meet him. And they also had a Jewish member? Yes.
(6:55 – 7:16)
So people pointed that out then? They pointed that out. They said, you know, if it’ll work
for a Jew, it’ll work for an Arlington. Well, then how long did you go to the Arlington
meeting? I went to the Arlington Street meeting about every week for the next year.
(7:17 – 7:29)
At that particular time, I didn’t miss no night going to a meeting for a whole solid two
years. You mean you went every night? Every night. And I had to ride the bus because
none of us had a car.
(7:30 – 7:38)
Well, you didn’t have a meeting every night at Arlington Street? No. So you went all over
Akron? All over Akron. To other meetings? Hank School and all.
(7:38 – 7:54)
And were you welcomed at these meetings? I was welcomed to the meeting. Did
anybody ever give you any trouble or resent your going there or anything like that?
Everybody had their hands open for me. So you felt that you got a warm welcome in AA?
I do.
(7:55 – 8:23)
Who do you consider your sponsor, this Ed Barnes? I consider Ms. Markin and Ed Barnes
my sponsor, Jenny Markin. Did you know who were some of the other early members of
AA in Akron that worked with you at that time? McNulty, Walter McNulty was one of the
quite a few. Dayton Smith, he brought a bunch of them from camp about every week
after we got started.
(8:25 – 8:35)
Bill Dodson, did you know him well? Yes, he used to come to our meetings too. He was at
the King School group, isn’t that right? Yes, that’s right. He belonged to King School
group.
(8:36 – 8:53)
About how many, in 1947, do you remember how many groups they had in Akron? Well,
as close as I can think, it must have been around 25 groups. So you had a meeting every
night somewhere? Every night somewhere. So AA was really good and strong at that
time.
(8:53 – 9:13)
Oh, yes, it was good and strong at that time. Were most of the meetings open discussion
with wives attending too, or were they a mixture? We only had a couple of closed
meetings. Most of the meeting was open meeting.
(9:13 – 9:25)
Wives could attend the same as they had. And so Dr. Bob’s wife, Ann, attended the
meetings too, and Bill Dodson’s wife, Henrietta. Yes, they all attended those meetings.
(9:25 – 9:43)
Yes. Now, when did you get some more black members into the program in Akron? Well,
after Bill, he come in at the second meeting, which was about two weeks later. Bill
Wilson? No, Bill Tolliver.
(9:43 – 9:55)
Oh, Bill Tolliver, excuse me. Bill Tolliver, he sponsored his brother, I mean his cousin,
about a couple of months later. And what was his cousin’s name? Ed Marcus.
(9:56 – 10:04)
Ed Marcus, yes. Are these fellows still living? No. Marcus and Tolliver’s dead.
(10:04 – 10:17)
Now, Tolliver, do you remember how his name was spelled? T-O-L-L-I-V-E-R. That was the
way it was spelled. And Marcus was M-A-R-C-U-S? That’s right.
(10:18 – 10:43)
Now, did you fellows finally form a group that was a sort of an interracial group? Yes,
after Faith and I got together, we had our first meeting in Faith McMillan’s home, which
was about a couple of weeks later when we first met. Well, very early in your experience.
In 1947, yes.
(10:43 – 10:54)
And you already had a meeting. Who was there besides you and Faith? Well, Ed Barnes,
he was there. And Walter McNulty, he was there.
(10:55 – 11:09)
And so was David Smith and 12 others from Kent. And so the idea was to start a group
that would serve black members. And did that keep going, then, that group? Yes, it kept
going.
(11:09 – 11:25)
After we moved from Barges Street, we went on down at the Lutheran Church. Excuse
me, you mentioned that street, Barges Street, Barges Street. How was that spelled? B-AR-G-E-S.
(11:26 – 11:34)
And was that in Faith’s home? No, that was in Catholic Parish. Well, that’s where you had
your first meetings. That’s where we had our first meetings.
(11:34 – 11:42)
After you organized the group at Faith’s home. Yes. And so then you met there for about
a year? We met there for about a year.
(11:42 – 12:03)
And then the next place you went was? Down at Lutheran Church on Hyde Street. And
then what did you call your group? We called them Barges Street group at that time. And
then after you moved, did you just change the name to the? After we moved to the
community center, they wanted us to go on the community center name.
(12:03 – 12:14)
So we changed our group to the community center group. Just community center group.
And that was recognized in Akron as an interracial group.
(12:15 – 12:30)
And so how many black members did you have, say, by 1950? By 1950, we had, I would
say, about 16. 16. Regular attendance.
(12:31 – 12:52)
Of course, so many come through the door and went out. Did you feel that it is, do you
feel that, generally speaking, it is harder for black people to accept the program? Yes, I
do. It seemed to me as though it’s harder for colored to accept the program than it is for
white.
(12:53 – 13:27)
Do you have any reasons why you think that? I mean, do you? Well, I look around and I
see, I know from dealing with different ones, that we have more white young people in
the A than we do colored. But you don’t know the reason for this? No, I don’t know the
reason. But you do think it is true, in your experience? But then you also have lots of
black people, like yourself, who have really accepted the program and done a lot with it.
(13:28 – 13:49)
Well, we, in Cleveland, we have a larger settlement of colored than in Akron. Now, as I
said, we had about 15 or 16 colored in program by 1950. But after that, they started
drifting away.
(13:50 – 14:08)
And right today, we only have about 25 out of the two groups. We had another group to
form, which they call it the St. Thomas group. The St. Thomas group? Yeah.
(14:08 – 14:18)
Does that mean at the hospital? Yeah, Lenny Bell, he was here. And so today, you still
have the community center group in the St. Thomas group. Right.
(14:18 – 14:36)
And you still regard the community center group as yours? As my home group. And then,
how about in Cleveland? Are there quite a few black people in the program? Oh, yes,
there’s quite a few. They have about seven, eight more than that group started there.
(14:36 – 14:49)
They all have good attendance on Sundays. Did, were there, when you came in, were
there any black members in Cleveland? Every member. It was about seven, eight when I
come in.
(14:51 – 15:12)
Have you seen, when did you first meet Bill W., Bill Wilson? I met Bill at St. Thomas
Hospital when I left to be introduced to Faith McMillan. You mean Bill Wilson? I’m thinking
of Bill Wilson, the co-founder of AA. I met Bill.
(15:12 – 15:18)
He happened to be an actor. And Dr. Bob was together at that time. They just happened
to, he just happened to be an actor at that time.
(15:19 – 15:23)
Yes. And so they both came around to see you. Right.
(15:23 – 15:33)
And Bill was particularly interested in helping black people as they are. Oh, right, right.
How about Dr. Bob? Did he see? Dr. Bob, he was quite interested in helping color.
(15:35 – 15:49)
So you and he became pretty good friends, I take it? We did. And he knew you, and did
he attend your meetings much? Yes, he used to come quite often to our meetings. At the
community center? At the community center.
(15:50 – 16:09)
Would he talk quite a bit when he would come to the meetings? He’d give us all a good
talk when he’d come to the meetings. Was he pretty well thought of in Akron by the
members? Was he recognized as the leader in AA? I mean, no question about that.
There’s no question about that.
(16:09 – 16:24)
He was recognized to the highest. Was there any dissension against him or anything like
that? Not that I know of. And then Bill Dodson, of course, was very well liked in the
program.
(16:25 – 16:38)
Isn’t that right? Right. He was kind of the grand old man of, as I saw it in Akron there
when he was still living. Was he friendly to you, Bill? Oh, yes, Bill Dodson, he was quite
friendly.
(16:38 – 16:54)
I knew Bill Dodson before he’d come in the program. I used to work at a garage on West
Exchange Street where he used to park his car. And I used to see Bill Dodson about
every night.
(16:54 – 17:05)
Did you know that he had a drinking problem? No, I didn’t. You never saw him when he
happened to be drinking? No. But you did know him just happened to know him? Yes.
(17:08 – 17:37)
Your own drinking, we probably should have covered this before, but when did you think
your drinking started? My drinking started, I would say I was living in Cleveland in 1931.
This is when you were laid off from Fireski? Yes. And I used to live at Majestic Hotel there
in Cleveland, which was a drinking paradise.
(17:40 – 18:03)
Bill Hopp and I, we used to get together, go up in my room and get some bootleg
whiskey and a big trolla and play that. So that’s when you think your drinking really got
started? That’s when my drinking really got started, in 31. And then did it kind of
progress through the 30s? It progressed through the 30s.
(18:03 – 18:19)
Did you drink when you worked or just on weekends? Well, I was a periodic drinker. I
didn’t drink every day. I could go to work and work, but on weekends, that’s when I had
my hardest drinking.
(18:20 – 18:36)
But as time grew on, I began, before it was over with, I began to drink every day. And I
was called up on the copper several times. I was suspended for four days one time and
seven days the next time.
(18:36 – 18:50)
That was at Firestone? That was at Firestone. So there was reason to be, for your wife’s
concern then? Oh, yes. And then you have apparently suffered quite a bit from
hangovers and blackouts and so on.
(18:50 – 19:05)
Did you ever get arrested? Well, I was arrested once, a couple of times, with DWI. The
first time I was arrested was out in Springfield Lake. I was out driving my car.
(19:05 – 19:16)
I told myself, I’m going to go out and cool off. And I got arrested by one of the Bobson
police. But they didn’t put DWI against me the first time.
(19:16 – 19:31)
They turned me loose instead of me straightening up. I went right back and got another
bottle and went right back out to the lake again. Next time they arrested me, they
charged me, DWI, $150 for the pause.
(19:32 – 19:48)
Oh, boy. Do you remember what year that was? I must have been around 45, I think. A
couple of years before you came in.
(19:48 – 19:59)
A couple of years before I came in. So really, you were probably, even though you didn’t
know anything about AA, you were probably right for the program. I was right for the
program.
(19:59 – 20:24)
I didn’t acknowledge it, but I was right for it because I realized since I got in the program
that some of the things that I had done, a person wouldn’t do them unless he had been
insane. I would go down and buy watches and different things, all my stuff, and take
them down and pawn them for drinks. And I knew no person with right sense wouldn’t do
that.
(20:26 – 20:42)
Well, so you think probably that it was providential that your wife happened to meet
these people and hear about them. Do you think that was the higher power working in
your life? That was the higher power working in my life. Let’s see.
(20:42 – 20:53)
You probably knew Ethel Macy, too, didn’t you? Yes, I did. I used to see Ethel Macy. Did
Ethel come down to your group? No, she went to Bombington group mostly.
(20:53 – 20:58)
That’s right. She was Bombington and Kane School. But you probably from time to time
visited them.
(20:58 – 21:08)
Oh, yes. Did you attend that first international conference in 1950? Yes, I did. In
Cleveland? Yes.
(21:08 – 21:30)
And how about in 1955? Did you go out to St. Louis? No, I didn’t go out to St. Louis. You
were in Denver, though, in 1975. I was in Denver.
I was in Miami in 1970. 1970. And I was in Denver at the World Conference.
(21:30 – 21:46)
Did you make Toronto in 1965? Yes, I made Toronto in 1965. So the only one you didn’t
get then, did you get Long Beach in 1960? No, I didn’t. And so those two were the only
international conferences you didn’t attend.
(21:48 – 22:16)
Well, is there anything else you can think of that we ought to tell now here for the
archives? Well, I think if the world just had a part of what we have in AA, it would be a
better world to live in. You feel that AA is a pattern for living for the whole world? For
living for the whole world. But from your own standpoint, you feel that you’ve had good
acceptance in AA.
(22:16 – 22:23)
Right. Have you ever had any rejection at all because of your race? No, I haven’t. In AA,
I’m talking about.
(22:23 – 22:48)
No, I haven’t had no rejection at all. I’ve been to Alabama, I’ve met people from
Alabama, I’ve met people from Georgia and all over, and I’ve never had no rejection.
When did they change that policy at St. Thomas so that black members could attend or
be hospitalized on the ward? That was changed in 1948.
(22:48 – 23:04)
Chief Technician in front of the hospital at the time. And they got together and went to
the board of directors and asked them to at least give them one or two beds for the
color. On the ward? In the ward.
(23:04 – 23:27)
So that was changed then? That was changed, yes. Well, very good, Ed, and we
appreciate your sharing this. I know that Nell will be very happy to have this in the
archives, particularly since it’s this early information about Akron, as well as your being
the first black member, one of the first black members in Akron.
(23:27 – 23:42)
Thank you very much. Thank you. Before we go to the next person, Ed, I do want to put
down the spelling for Faith McMillan’s name.
(23:43 – 24:02)
That is F-A-T-E capital M-C capital M-I-L-L-A-N. And Faith died about 1962, isn’t that right?
Okay, we’ll just put that on the record for Nell’s information. Well, our next person is
from Ann Arbor, Michigan.
(24:04 – 24:34)
The grand old man of A.A. in Ann Arbor. And last spring when we went to the anniversary
in Ann Arbor, he was given special recognition by the Ann Arbor A.A.s for his longtime
service in A.A. This is a man I’ve known since 1952, James Fondren, Jimmy Fondren from
Ann Arbor. Jim, we’re taping you for the A.A. Archives down in New York.
(24:35 – 24:55)
And is that permissible with you? Is that permissible? You’re happy to be… Honored.
Okay. Do you know Nell Wing? Did you ever meet Nell? She’s our archivist and was Bill’s
secretary for many years, Bill W.’s secretary.
(24:55 – 25:10)
And she’s run the A.A. Archives for the last few years and has done an excellent job of
getting this information together. Have you ever met Nell? I don’t recall ever meeting
her. Well, she’s a very lovely woman, so you would remember her if you ever met her.
(25:12 – 25:39)
Would you spell your name, your last name, Jim, and give your address? My name is
James Fondren, F-O-N-D-R-E-N. I live at 923… Okay, and what is your age and your date
of birth, Jim? Nineteen-seven. Nineteen-oh-seven.
(25:39 – 25:46)
Nineteen-eleventh, eleventh month, 1907. In November of 1907. Yes, November of 1907.
(25:47 – 26:03)
And where were you born? I was born in San Francisco, Mississippi. It’s K-O-S-C-I-U-S-Q.
And then you later moved to Iowa? Iowa very shortly.
(26:03 – 26:12)
I went to live with my sister. I had a big family. I worked in the church, so I was
transferred to live with my sister.
(26:13 – 26:23)
How old were you at that time? So you don’t even remember Mississippi, really. No, I
don’t. And so you lived in these various little towns in Iowa.
(26:24 – 26:33)
I lived in Duncan, in Iowa. I lived in Old Wayne, in Iowa. I went to school in Nashua, Iowa.
(26:35 – 26:47)
And I lived in Manchester. That’s the longest time. And I ended up living in a small town
up in the northern part, Strawberry Point, Iowa.
(26:48 – 26:59)
Strawberry Point. Yes. And when did you come to Ann Arbor? Well, I came to Ann Arbor
at the early part, at the last of 33, up until the first of 34.
(27:02 – 27:18)
And you lived in Ann Arbor ever since? I lived in Ann Arbor ever since. And then when
were you married? I was married the 28th of January, 1928. The 12th of January, 1928.
(27:18 – 27:30)
And where was Lorraine, your wife, from? She was from, which as I found out later, she
was from Otter Valley, Mississippi. I see. But you met her in Ann Arbor? I met her in
Waterloo Alley.
(27:31 – 27:35)
Right. And then later on, the two of you went out to Ann Arbor. Yeah.
(27:36 – 27:50)
Now, what type of work did you do? I have been an official expert in dry cleaning all my
life. You’ve worked in dry cleaning establishments. So, how many children do you have?
One.
(27:50 – 28:02)
That’s your daughter. Yes. And how old is she now? My daughter is one and… She’ll be
about 50 now.
(28:02 – 28:20)
About 50, yes. Now, what was your drinking background? Well, that’s one reason why
that I’m in Ann Arbor now. From a drinking, I started running into the state of Michigan.
(28:20 – 28:42)
I was headed for Detroit. That’s when you left Iowa, Waterloo. I left Iowa, yeah.
I was headed for Detroit. And then I finally stayed there. I finally… So, you’re just kind of
a happenstance that you got to Ann Arbor.
(28:42 – 29:04)
Yes. And did your drinking go on then? Or did you have any periods of sobriety or staying
dry during those years? For quite a few years, I never had any sobriety. Even when I
came into… I drank up to a point that I just didn’t know what to do and which way to
turn.
(29:04 – 29:16)
So, one Saturday, I came in off a spree that I’d been on. And I sat down and I heard a
program on the radio. They called it Glass Crutch.
(29:16 – 29:36)
And said, if you have a drinking problem, know of anyone with a drinking problem, write
to this station and listen to it. So, we wrote to this particular place in Detroit. It’s
supposedly the… Well, anyway, it’s one of the area headquarters for AA in Detroit.
(29:36 – 29:39)
And it’s Old Maccabeesville on the head. The Old Maccabees. Yes.
(29:39 – 29:41)
Down there on Woodward Avenue. That’s right. Yes.
(29:42 – 30:00)
So, we wrote to that and we finally… But prior to this, I had been to one meeting. But
anyway, we wrote to this and then after I got to let out on to it. But I wasn’t approached
exactly like, you know, I felt.
(30:00 – 30:14)
Maybe it was, you know, an alcoholic feeling. You didn’t feel that you were accepted?
Well, I did feel like, I think I felt that I was over-accepted. That’s what it did mean
because when I walked in, I was the only black in the place.
(30:14 – 30:23)
And they just kind of swabbed all in. And the first guy said, If you think you’re an
alcoholic, you’re in the right place. If you’re not in there, you don’t think you’re an
alcoholic, you’re not in the right place.
(30:23 – 30:28)
So, I took the other one. I decided I wasn’t. So, I backed out.
(30:29 – 30:46)
Did you feel that they were going out of their way to be nice to you? That you were
uncomfortable? It made me uncomfortable because they did it, actually, extremely
nicely. This was in Ann Arbor? This was in Ann Arbor. And I left that meeting that night.
(30:46 – 30:57)
And the guy told me, he said, If you don’t think you’re an alcoholic, go out and bump
your head. And when you decide that you want what we’ve got to offer, then you can
come back. Well, I was out for about a year.
(30:59 – 31:11)
What year was it that you went to the first meeting? I went to the first meeting around
the last of 45, around the midst of 46. Now, I can’t put this together exactly. Right after
the war? Yeah.
(31:12 – 31:38)
And then when did you come back in then? Well, I started making meetings in Detroit, I
would say, around the end of 46, around the first of 47. And what were these meetings?
Those meetings, the meetings that I started going to. My sponsors, two of them, came to
me and sat and talked to me and explained to me about how, you know, He worked and
everything, and I was very thin.
(31:39 – 31:52)
And they told me, said, I’d been going up to the Michigan Union up there where the
meeting was at. And they suggested, they knew damn well that I wouldn’t go back to
that meeting. They told me about the meeting that they were having in Detroit.
(31:52 – 32:04)
And they suggested I go down there and meet, because in Detroit at that time they had
a mixed meeting. An interracial meeting? Interracial meeting. What was the name of it?
East Ferry Group.
(32:04 – 32:15)
So I went down there and I accepted the program right off the bat. And that was about
1947? Yeah, around the last 46, 47. That’s your sobriety date then, you can’t quite
remember.
(32:15 – 32:28)
I can’t quite remember. And then on, from then on, I actually haven’t had a drink, I
haven’t had any desire to drink. I had two sponsors then, Paul Merriweather.
(32:29 – 32:42)
Paul Merriweather was that first black member in Detroit. He was the one in there, he sat
down and showed me, you know, just polite. You know, I was accepted to all the
meetings that I went.
(32:43 – 32:53)
And two fellows picked me to be my sponsor. They picked, they decided they were going
to sponsor you? They were going to sponsor me. They were going to raise one black boy
there.
(32:53 – 33:05)
And what were their names? Charlie Stacy and Howard Grooms. Howard Grooms. Do you
remember how Howard’s last name was spelled? G-R-O-O-M-S.
(33:05 – 33:18)
And then Howard Stacy, I suppose his name was S-T-A-C-Y. Yeah. And are they both
passed on now? I’m quite sure that Howard is, but Charlie Stacy, I think he still lives, I’m
sure.
(33:18 – 33:21)
Not in Ann Arbor. In Florida. In Florida.
(33:21 – 33:42)
Now, Paul Merriweather, of course I never knew Paul, but I did meet his wife, I believe,
when I first came to Michigan. Do you remember how Paul’s last name was spelled? W-EA-T-H-E-R. Merri.
(33:43 – 33:51)
Merriweather. M-E-R-I-W-E-H-T-H-E-R. Just one R in the Merri part of it.
(33:51 – 33:58)
I’m quite sure. Merriweather. And then his wife’s name, what was her first name? I didn’t
know her too well.
(33:58 – 34:04)
But was she a member of the program? No, she wasn’t. Yes, she was. He married her.
(34:05 – 34:13)
That was after I came in the program. I didn’t have too much contact. And then Paul was
killed in an accident.
(34:13 – 34:22)
He was killed in an accident. We were supposed to meet in Blissfield to an anniversary
there. And on the date for that, I couldn’t give you on that.
(34:24 – 34:34)
But we were leaving Ann Arbor, and he was leaving Detroit, and we were supposed to
meet at this anniversary. It was just earlier here. It was in the fall.
(34:34 – 34:53)
It was in the fall of the year. Wouldn’t it have been in 1949 or 1950? No, it was later than
that because we were, Paul and myself, we were all at the International Conference in
the first one in Cleveland. So it would have had to be after that.
(34:53 – 35:02)
Yeah. But I seem to remember people talking about it in the fall of 1950. And then there
was a fellow named Washington.
(35:05 – 35:10)
There was another fellow whose wife was killed in the same year. Yeah, that is her.
Jefferson.
(35:10 – 35:13)
Al Jefferson. Oh, Jefferson. I was thinking Washington.
(35:14 – 35:17)
And his wife was killed in that same year. No, she wasn’t. She was made an inmate.
(35:18 – 35:25)
I see. And she was the same as a, what we’d say, a jelly. I see.
(35:25 – 35:42)
She just smoked along, and actually when she died years later, it’s, you know,
interesting. Now, Paul then was the first black member in Detroit. To my knowledge, he
was the first in the state of Michigan.
(35:42 – 35:59)
Do you remember when Paul might have come into the program? Well, I don’t know, but
it’s what happened. Sarah Klein was his sponsor into the program. Sarah, the nonalcoholic woman that was Archie Trowbridge’s landlady.
(35:59 – 36:01)
Yes, that’s right. Yes. That’s right.
(36:01 – 36:12)
But at the time, I couldn’t remember that because it’s back history before me. You know,
I probably heard it, but I, you know, just a short time ago. I don’t know if I can speak to
this.
(36:14 – 36:18)
It was 1946. 1946. Indeed.
(36:20 – 36:27)
Well, so you and Paul then were pretty good friends. We are. And he helped you a great
deal then.
(36:27 – 36:41)
Well, he was my whole support in those years. And you went to, was the East Ferry
Group there at that women’s club on Rush Street? It’s on Ferry and Rush. And that’s
where they were for years until they finally moved out.
(36:45 – 37:06)
Now, when did you start that group in Ann Arbor and that Dunbar Center? What was the
background of that group that became your community center group? Well, I hadn’t
arrived at it. I guess my sponsors didn’t trust me too well because I had been in a lot of
trouble. So they decided what they would do.
(37:06 – 37:31)
They would start a group there, and that way it probably gave a chance to get other
colors into the group. And so they would, they started the group, made all arrangements
and everything, and then every Monday night they would come to the meeting and
assist me through, and, you know, and ask me did I have any calls to make and stuff like
that. And so it went along like that, and finally they started growing up there.
(37:32 – 37:49)
This was the meeting held at the Dunbar Center? It was an old Dunbar Center group.
That old kind of like a house building where when I first met you, you were meeting
there? What was the address of that? 420 North 4th Avenue. North 4th Avenue.
(37:50 – 38:10)
And what year do you think you started that group? Well, I think it was just about a year
after I came into the program. And how long was it before you finally got some other
black members? Very shortly after that. I think if I recall right, Willie Wilson.
(38:11 – 38:36)
We always called him Bill W. And so he came in and he stayed for quite a long time, and
then we got Ed Morris from Ypsi, and then we got… What about Earl? Earl Garnett, he
came in. And we ended up there. We had about 15 members within our range, I’d say, a
year.
(38:37 – 38:49)
And it went along like that for quite some time. We used to always take… I had an old
car. We’d go all over through the country and everything to all the meetings that we
was.
(38:50 – 39:04)
And then finally Joe came in to Ann Arbor there, and so he came in with us. That’s Joe
Lee that you put on tape here shortly? Yeah. And you always have a story you’re told
about the Elks Club, where you were kicked out of the Elks Club.
(39:05 – 39:20)
Oh, yeah, yeah. I used to… We bought an Elks Club right across the street building, right
across the street from where I’m at. And I kept my membership dues up so I could be
able to drink whenever I wanted.
(39:20 – 39:32)
I could just slip over and get all I wanted to drink. So one night it came to a point that I
was real helpful. I would clean all the tables off and drink all the leftovers in the meal.
(39:32 – 39:45)
So they threw me out this particular time, and I rolled down the hill. It was up on a hill,
and I rolled down into the gutter. And I got up that is prior to this meal and into the
meeting.
(39:46 – 39:56)
So I got up and I started going to the meeting. It came back in 1951. They wanted a new
Exalted Ruler.
(39:56 – 40:07)
So everybody that night was drunk, and so they said, and I was sober, I had been sober
for quite some time. So they said, well, put Jim in there. So I was elected Exalted Ruler.
(40:08 – 40:14)
I remember when we first met, you were the Exalted Ruler there. I was, yeah. And I
stopped there one time.
(40:14 – 40:20)
You were having a big barbecue. Remember that? Yeah. And then you later built your
house right across the street from that.
(40:21 – 40:28)
I can always remember. I look across the way and see it. I always remember where I
came from and where E.E. and God has put me today.
(40:29 – 40:44)
And I often think about that. Now, in your years in AA, Jim, you’ve traveled around a lot,
and you’ve known some of these black members from other areas. Who are some of
them you can think of, like from Chicago? We mentioned Redmond.
(40:44 – 40:56)
Yeah, and Ensofee at the time. And then there was a girl by the name of LaMorgan that
was. There was a girl.
(40:59 – 41:02)
LaMorgan. Yes. And is she still living? I don’t know.
(41:03 – 41:10)
I don’t know after I lost track of Ensofee. Ensofee was her sponsor after he died. And he
has died, and so has Earl Redmond.
(41:10 – 41:26)
Yeah, and I lost track of most of the people in there. But I used to know quite a few guys
in there used to work on the railroad, you know, curbs and waiters and so on like that.
But I have one guy that I know quite well that’s in Chicago now.
(41:27 – 41:30)
He’s Jimmy Hargis. Jimmy Hargis. Yeah.
(41:31 – 41:39)
H-A-R-G-I-S perhaps? D-G-I-S. D-G-I-S. Yeah.
(41:40 – 41:48)
And he is sober and a friend of yours? He is sober, and he’s in the Mustard Seed group
there in Chicago. The Mustard Seed. And you still see him now? Oh, yes, yes.
(41:49 – 41:59)
Did you know Dr. Bob? I met Dr. Bob, and I met Bill Wilson, and I met Bill Dotson. I met
Bill Dotson in Jackson. In Jackson? No, it’s Kalamazoo.
(41:59 – 42:12)
They had this big meeting over there years ago. And I met Dr. Bob and Bill. They used to
have meetings at the Ford Auditorium.
(42:12 – 42:19)
And then I met him at the Cass Tech conference. Bill Wilson at Cass Tech. Bill Wilson,
yeah.
(42:20 – 42:26)
That probably was in 1951 when he gave that third legacy talk. That’s probably when it
was, yeah. In about February.
(42:26 – 42:29)
Yeah. Real cold night. I was at that meeting, too.
(42:29 – 42:57)
Yeah, yeah. Did you—I had a thought there that I— Have you ever had any rejection you
feel in AA because of your race very much? Or been conscious of that? No, I haven’t. I
can tell you, it seemed to me that since I’ve been in the program with an understanding,
I don’t feel it.
(42:57 – 43:07)
I don’t get any rejection. Even I was in Amarillo, Texas, and I called once down there. And
they were really delighted to meet me down there.
(43:07 – 43:20)
How long ago was that? That was back, I would say, at least 10 years ago. And they
seemed to be real happy to hear from me. And I went to that meeting that night.
(43:20 – 43:33)
All they wanted to know, how did the meeting run around Michigan? And that’s just
about all they wanted to know. Did you know Archie Trowbridge? I knew Archie
Trowbridge, yeah. So you and he were— Oh, yeah.
(43:35 – 43:42)
Then any of the other early members? You, of course, knew Mike Isherman. Oh, I knew
Mike Isherman. You know, he used to get the boys out of prison, you know.
(43:46 – 44:00)
Turn our tape over. We were talking about Archie Trowbridge and Mike Isherman. Who
else were we talking about there? There’s a guy in Detroit that I knew quite well named
Kelly.
(44:00 – 44:13)
Kelly, a guy that I don’t know his first name. Kelly. Was this a black fellow? Oh, it was a
white fellow.
(44:14 – 44:29)
And if I recall, we had made several visits with Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob in Akron various
times. Now, you met Bill personally. Oh, yeah.
(44:29 – 44:35)
And he was interested in what you were doing in Ann Arbor, I know. I tell you, something
came quite there. It just came to me.
(44:35 – 44:53)
It was really neat. I met him in Akron at a Founders’ Day meeting, and they was having a
dance the night before on a Friday night. And I thought I was real enthused, you know,
that when he asked me where was I from, what group I was from, he seemed bad, and
so I told him I was from the interracial group in Ann Arbor.
(44:53 – 45:10)
He said, well, why you got an interracial group? He said, the whole dang thing is
interracial. And so we went back to Ann Arbor, and we were in at around 57, because we
were in the new building then. So we went back there and changed the name to the Ann
Arbor Community Center Group.
(45:10 – 45:12)
I remember when you did that. Yes, that’s right. That’s right.
(45:13 – 45:18)
And you moved in that nice new building where you still are. Yeah. You still have the
Monday night meetings.
(45:18 – 45:25)
Oh, yeah. So I felt the same as he did. The interracial group would be an out, something
would separate their peoples.
(45:26 – 45:36)
And we changed it to Ann Arbor Community Center Group. That was because of meeting
Bill. Meeting him and the suggestion that it was already interracial without having a
double interracial.
(45:37 – 45:52)
Very good. When did you meet, we just had Ed Bledsoe on the tape. When did you meet
Ed? Well, I can’t recall, but some kind of affair was happening in Akron at the old
Goodyear Theater building.
(45:53 – 46:02)
And we went there, and somehow or another we met up there. And ever since then
we’ve been real good friends. And you’ve even taken trips to California together.
(46:02 – 46:23)
Oh, yeah, yeah. We went as company because it’s an inspiration. Well, can you think of
anything else you’d like to put down on the tape here, Jim? Well, there’s one thing I can
say.
(46:23 – 46:34)
I wouldn’t want to be anyplace else besides Ann Arbor. I’d enjoy it. How many black
members do you have in Ann Arbor now? Well, we got, at the present time, ten regular.
(46:34 – 46:56)
I could say around four or five, but we got so darn many of them, we just got so many
and went into churches and other different fields and all that. But our group, as I say, it’s
strictly an AA group sometimes. It runs around 25 to 35 peoples, and it’s mixed all up.
(46:56 – 47:06)
We even got a Chinese boy. In Ann Arbor? Yeah, in Ann Arbor. Of course, in Ann Arbor
you do have a lot of people from Asia and so on living there because of the university.
(47:06 – 47:21)
It’s all races of people. It’s pretty hard to find, you know. Was this fellow from China, or
was he born here? No, I think he was born in the United States, but he actually is from
Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
(47:22 – 47:28)
I see. Is he up there going to school? I think he’s in school. Well, very fine.
(47:28 – 47:45)
So you’ve really been an example to the AAs up in Michigan. And, of course, we’ve
known each other for 26 years, and I know how much you’re respected up in Ann Arbor
and in central Michigan. We were in the central Michigan inner area there for a long
time.
(47:46 – 48:08)
Do you still go to the inner area? Yeah. It is the inner area where the concert was started
by myself, and drank wine, Charlie Sidcoe, and Crowfoot from— Lloyd Crowfoot from
Chessman. Lloyd Crowfoot from Chessman, and that bunch of guys there.
(48:14 – 48:36)
Well, Jim, thanks a lot for your thoughts here. And Nell will be very happy to know about
the work you’ve done in Ann Arbor and all of these years. And so now we’ll turn to our
good friend Joe Lee here.
(48:37 – 49:07)
Joe, you’ve sat here and heard his tape, Ed Bledsoe and Jim Fondren, and you know kind
of what the procedure is. Is it permissible with you that we tape you, put this on tape for
the archives in New York? Yes, for all reasons. Now, would you spell out your name, Joe?
Joe Lee, L-E-E, life name Joe, J-O-E.
(49:08 – 49:22)
Is it Joseph? I have been called that. Your real name is Joseph, or is it Joe? Joe is a
nickname. It goes back in the days when I was drinking.
(49:23 – 49:45)
I looked and had the resemblance of Joe Lewis. You know, at that time, in my drinking
days, I would put on a big show to get a free drink. Nicknamed Joe Lewis at that time, he
had what they called a six-inch punch.
(49:46 – 49:56)
The quick action. Well, that was me, the quick action of getting those free drinks. Your
real name is not Joseph then.
(49:56 – 50:01)
James Lee. James Lee is the correct name. But Joe is your nickname.
(50:01 – 50:15)
Now, how old are you, Joe? I am 52 years old. So you were born in 1926? 1926, July the
18th. And where were you born? Bondi, Kentucky.
(50:17 – 50:35)
Bondi? Yes, F-O-N-D-I-E-E. Bondi, Kentucky. And when did you come to Ann Arbor? All of
us, in and out, from 39, 41, back and forth, in and out all the time.
(50:36 – 50:48)
And I came back in 46. Your family moved up there, is that it? No, I had an uncle. My
mother’s brother lived there in Ann Arbor.
(50:49 – 51:00)
I used to come and visit back and forth. And my uncle and Jimmy lived right side by side
at 718 North Main. That’s where Jimmy was.
(51:00 – 51:10)
That’s where Jim was living when he retired my mother. 718 North Main. And my uncle’s
address was 722, right side by side.
(51:11 – 51:28)
When did you come into the A.A. program? In 48. Was this when you had your last drink?
Yes, sir. And what month was that, in 48? I often think about it.
(51:28 – 51:46)
In fact, I don’t know whether it was 48 or 49. But I always cared 49 for the simple reason
this will be my 30th anniversary this year. And was it? I dumped it June the 10th,
because that’s our anniversary for the group.
(51:48 – 51:57)
June 10th, 1948. Well, that was Dr. Bob’s survival day, June 10th. So that’s a nice,
illustrious date to pick.
(51:58 – 52:13)
Was it because you knew Jim through your uncle? Was this how you happened to come
in the program? Yes, sir. Through the program of drinking. Tim’s uncle had a bar
downstairs.
(52:13 – 52:19)
Jimmy had one also. Between the two houses, I was back and forth from one to the other
one. And you were doing a lot of drinking.
(52:20 – 52:31)
I was doing a lot of drinking. And everybody knew about it. But the amazing part was
that the last time that I arrived, I was in 46, 47.
(52:32 – 52:39)
I forget which. But this time, Jimmy wasn’t drinking. So you were wondering why he
wasn’t drinking.
(52:39 – 52:51)
He wasn’t drinking. And at the same time, I had discovered that I was to the point where
I was sick and tired of being sick and tired the way I was before. Always drinking.
(52:51 – 52:59)
I had a difficult problem with drinking. And I watched Tim. And I listened to him when I
could get it.
(53:00 – 53:16)
And his attitude had changed altogether differently. And my uncle always talked about
him a great deal, how improved he had made. And he liked the way that he was
operating.
(53:17 – 53:22)
Thought perhaps that he would join. Oh, your uncle was even thinking about himself.
Yes.
(53:23 – 53:38)
Did he ever come into AA? No, he didn’t. But he was closely related with it because of
myself and Jimmy. And what was his name? Ralph Baxter.
(53:39 – 53:46)
And he was living. I probably met him over there at Jim’s house, I imagine. When did he?
Is he still living? No, he is deceased.
(53:47 – 54:02)
But he was living there, so he was probably. When I used to go over to your house there,
he probably. So then what finally convinced you that you should come into AA? The
results of Jimmy.
(54:04 – 54:27)
I felt that I had to go the way he was going. And then I started going to the meetings.
And often looking back now, I’m thinking, I was the type of drinker who had gotten to the
point of having a bad habit of always sending out signals to tell me to come by.
(54:28 – 54:36)
I would go down to all the bars and all the places to drink. Or even the places that were
going to have free drinks. I wasn’t allowed.
(54:38 – 54:57)
When I came into AA, it was all together different. People were ready to greet me and
assist me, ask me questions. And I was the type that always wanted what I was now
receiving, but I didn’t know how to accept it.
(54:57 – 55:14)
It took me three years to accept the fact that I had what I always wanted. That was
surprising. So you’ve stayed in the AA, and you’ve been in the fellowship all of this time,
and you’ve been active there in the group.
(55:14 – 55:26)
Now you were out in California for a while, weren’t you? Yes. I had five years abroad. I
went to California in 1955.
(55:29 – 55:34)
And then you came back there. Then I came back. Did you go to meetings in California?
Yes, I did.
(55:35 – 55:50)
Where was that, in Los Angeles? No, it was in Santa Monica, California. The group that I
went to was one that Jack Bailey had formed there in Santa Monica. Oh, Jack Bailey.
(55:50 – 55:52)
Yes. The fellow who talked in Akron last year. Yes.
(55:53 – 55:58)
The Olympic group. So you and Jack were friends out there. Yes.
(56:00 – 56:32)
Well, have you had pretty good acceptance in AA? Have you ever felt that you’ve had
any rejection or anything like that? No, I haven’t. I would say from up forth, I have gained
more recognition of being wanted in AA than in any other place I have been associated
with people. AA as a whole is, to me, always with open hands.
(56:33 – 56:54)
They are glad to greet and receive. And likewise, they have a mind of asking you how
you’re doing, how long you’ve been here. And they are easy to make acquaintance with,
to ask all the information, how does it work.
(56:54 – 57:12)
That always has been my problem. I remember when I came in the first time, going back
to my co-sponsors, the sponsors were Jimmy and Paul Mayweather. At the time, we met
with our group, community group.
(57:12 – 57:17)
At the time, it was mainly an interracial group. And it was the Dunbar Center. The
Dunbar Center.
(57:19 – 57:36)
And at the time, Paul Mayweather and I were traveling a lot. It was always the opposite
direction of where we were the night before. And my question then, how do you stay
sober? He said, we’ll meet here in Chicago tomorrow night.
(57:37 – 57:53)
When I would get to Chicago tomorrow night, I would ask him, how do you stay sober?
He said, we’ll meet here in Chicago tomorrow night. It was always the opposite direction
of where we were before, after how we traveled. That was when Paul was still living.
(57:56 – 58:20)
Well, thank you very much, Joe. And I know Nell will be happy to have your comments on
this tape. Any final comments you want to put down? Yes, I can say the last 10 years
have been a beautiful experience of traveling, learning people all over the states, in the
western part of the country that we have traveled in.
(58:21 – 58:47)
Like in Tucson, we have a friend there that we didn’t have before. Amarillo, and also in
Los Angeles, and some people in Yellowstone Park. Every place that we have traveled,
we meet new and interesting people.
(58:48 – 58:58)
A lot of them that come to Michigan visit. We have dinner, we talk about different
people. Father’s Day is a wonderful exposition.
(58:58 – 59:10)
It’s an experience and fellowship meeting new faces and old faces each year. The
Founder’s Day in the back room, yes. Well, thank you very much, Joe.
(59:10 – 59:24)
And we’ll shut off the tape and hold this for Tommy Jackson if he gets here. All right.
Well, there really is a Tommy Jackson, and he arrived from Detroit.
(59:25 – 59:43)
And he’s also come with his wife to attend the anniversary of the City Park Group here in
Toledo. Tom, we’re going to make this tape for the AA Archives, for Nell Wing at the AA
Archives down in New York City. Is this permissible with you? Yes.
(59:45 – 59:59)
We’d like to get your name, your correct name, down on the tape. Your real name is
Thomas, isn’t that right? And do you have a middle initial? No. Just Thomas Jackson.
(59:59 – 1:00:01)
Right. That’s S-O-N. Right.
(1:00:02 – 1:00:09)
And your age now? I’m 67. Sixty-seven. An old bugger.
(1:00:09 – 1:00:18)
What year were you born? I was born 1910. What month? October 28th. Well, we have a
birthday coming up.
(1:00:18 – 1:00:21)
October 28th. Well, and next week. Next week.
(1:00:21 – 1:00:24)
So you’ll be 67. I’ll be 68. 68.
(1:00:24 – 1:00:29)
Oh, you don’t wait. You’re not 68 until the actual date. Until the actual date.
(1:00:29 – 1:00:40)
That’s right. Where were you born? I was born in a place called Thomaston, Georgia, 60
miles south of Atlanta. And when did you come to Michigan? 1930.
(1:00:41 – 1:00:44)
1930. Yes. And now you live in Detroit.
(1:00:45 – 1:00:53)
What is your address in Detroit? 2715 Oakman Boulevard. And you’re in the dry cleaning
business. Right.
(1:00:53 – 1:01:05)
And what is the name of your business? Jackson Cleaners. And you came to Detroit in
1930. Did you go into the dry cleaning business right away? Oh, no.
(1:01:05 – 1:01:13)
Oh, no. No, I just settled several years in. What did you do when you first came to
Detroit? When I first came to Detroit, let’s see.
(1:01:13 – 1:01:26)
Well, I worked with a man in the shoe repair business. I also was employed at Ford Motor
Company for about six months. I left there during the war.
(1:01:26 – 1:01:48)
I worked for Packer Motor Car Company until after the war. And then I came into AA, and
from that I went into the cleaning business. What was your sobriety date? February 14,
1947.
(1:01:50 – 1:01:58)
And who was your sponsor? My sponsor? I had a very, very good sponsor who passed on.
His name was Jim Dugan. Jim Dugan.
(1:01:58 – 1:02:18)
Yes. Did he spell his name D-U-G-A-N? I think so, pretty sure. And what group did he go
to? I think that would have been the East group at that time.
(1:02:19 – 1:02:51)
And then what group did you start attending when you came into AA? Well, that goes
back for a little history there because the group I first attended was the group which I am
a member of and which the group was, let’s say, kind of built around me, which is known
as the East Ferry Group. What do they call that group today? We still call it East Ferry.
And you met there at the women’s club on Brush.
(1:02:52 – 1:02:59)
Right. And when did you move from there? Do you remember? Not exactly, no. Quite a
few years ago.
(1:02:59 – 1:03:12)
Quite a few years ago. Well, now this Jim Dugan, how did you happen to get in touch
with him? Let me go back to bring you up a little better. Before then, there were no
blacks in AA.
(1:03:15 – 1:03:43)
And a very dear friend of mine and all of the AAs in the city of Detroit, there was a lady
by the name of Ms. Sarah Klein. So this particular call had went into the office, and at
that time they were trying to get someone to sponsor this black race. You? No, not me.
(1:03:44 – 1:03:52)
By the way, I’m not the first one. Yes. But the first member was a man by the name of
Paul Merriweather.
(1:03:53 – 1:04:05)
Well, we already had Jim’s recollections about Paul Merriweather, and we would like to
know more about him, your recollections of him. So anything you’d like to say about
Paul, we would like to have down on the tape. All right.
(1:04:05 – 1:04:24)
Well, Paul was the first black to come into the city of Detroit. And Paul was sponsored by
a man by the name of, what was his name? Lindsay. Lindsay.
(1:04:24 – 1:04:26)
Frank Lindsay. Frank Lindsay. Yes.
(1:04:27 – 1:04:47)
And that was through Ms. Sarah Klein, who at this time saw the need for a black group.
So the group was formed. And you started holding the meetings at? I was trying to tell
you the date.
(1:04:48 – 1:04:56)
That was with Paul Merriweather. Yes. Do you want the date of Paul? Do you know when
Paul came in the program? Yes.
(1:04:56 – 1:05:02)
It was December the 6th, 1946. 1946. Right.
(1:05:02 – 1:05:08)
And Paul was, he worked for the city for the sanitation department. The sanitation
department. He drove a truck, you say.
(1:05:09 – 1:05:26)
Right. And then when did you meet Paul after this? My first day meeting him was in
February of 47. See, at that time they were trying to form a group.
(1:05:27 – 1:05:48)
And I think they were holding one meeting a week. And, by the way, we didn’t have any
members. Because, you see, the people from Northwest Group came over and started
the East Ferry Group.
(1:05:48 – 1:06:03)
So we would have two or three blacks there once a week. The Northwest Group. Do you
remember some of the people in that group that tried to help out? Now, let me think.
(1:06:03 – 1:06:14)
Because all of these people came from the Northwest Group. They met out on Plymouth
there, did they? Yeah, I think so. Eileen? Eileen, I think.
(1:06:14 – 1:06:19)
That’s right, yeah. My recollection of names are not so good. Let me see.
(1:06:21 – 1:06:29)
Well, John Cole. John Cole, he would be one. Mike Eshelman.
(1:06:29 – 1:06:38)
Mike Eshelman, yes. And what’s the fellow’s name? Archie Trowbridge. Archie
Trowbridge.
(1:06:38 – 1:06:46)
So Archie was supportive of your group. Yeah, Archie was the first member in the city of
Detroit, by the way. Yes.
(1:06:46 – 1:06:53)
I don’t know if you have that document. Well, they have a great deal in the archives
about Archie. Yes, and he’s also mentioned in A.A. Comes of Age.
(1:06:54 – 1:07:12)
Oh, yeah. And Nell knows about Sarah Klein and her role in starting A.A. and helping A.A.
get started. She was the lady who brought A.A. to Detroit and brought A.A. to East Ferry
Group, when you put it that way.
(1:07:12 – 1:07:17)
Yes, but not an alcoholic herself. Not an alcoholic herself. No, tremendously.
(1:07:17 – 1:07:25)
Yes, I used to see her at those meetings. Lovely lady. Yes, and she’s still living, isn’t she,
in a nursing home somewhere? Yes, she is, from what I understand.
(1:07:26 – 1:07:42)
And she’s in a home somewhere out in West Bloomfield, I think. Well, then in February,
you came to this meeting. Then are you the second black member in Detroit? Right,
right.
(1:07:43 – 1:07:54)
And so then that’s when you met Paul Merriweather. Now, it might have been, let’s see,
it might have been some other black stumbled in there for one meeting, I suppose. But
you were the first one to stay sober.
(1:07:55 – 1:08:04)
Right, right, yeah. And then you have stayed continuously in the program since then,
and you’ve been also a member of that group. Right.
(1:08:05 – 1:08:22)
How do you feel you were treated by the other members in Detroit? Did you go around
to other meetings and this sort of thing in those years? Not at the beginning, no. We
wasn’t even invited. So you feel there was some rejection then? Oh, yes, definitely so.
(1:08:23 – 1:08:43)
Definitely so. But let me say this, I don’t hold that against anyone, but it was just in those
times, let’s put it that way. Now, did somebody make it clear that you weren’t welcome
at those meetings? No one made it clear that we wasn’t welcome.
(1:08:44 – 1:09:10)
You just didn’t feel that you were ever invited? We just didn’t feel that way. In fact, we
felt we had to be invited to attend a meeting until I was informed by a fellow in Winston,
and at that time they was holding a big Saturday night meeting in the McAmees building.
The one down on Woodward in the McAmees, yes, I remember that.
(1:09:11 – 1:09:29)
So this fellow asked me one night, he says, are you going to the meeting at the
McAmees building? So I said, we had never been invited. He said, you don’t have to be
invited to attend a meeting. He placed a recollection on me.
(1:09:29 – 1:09:40)
You don’t have to be invited to attend a meeting. Do you remember who that fellow was
that said that to you? He was an attorney from Winston. What was his name? Was it Roy
Craft? No, no, no.
(1:09:40 – 1:09:47)
I knew him too, but it wasn’t him. Uh-huh. Can’t think of his name now, but he was a big
attorney over there at that time.
(1:09:48 – 1:10:04)
So then you went to the McAmees, and were you well received there? Well received,
very well received. So maybe this feeling that you weren’t invited to these other
meetings, maybe that was all your own feeling. Could have been.
(1:10:04 – 1:10:14)
If you had shown up at these meetings, you would have been welcomed. Could have
been. Did you then start going to other meetings? Yes, somewhat, I guess, yeah.
(1:10:15 – 1:10:24)
And did you get a good reception? Were you invited to speak at meetings and so on? Oh,
yes, in the later years we were, yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, we are.
(1:10:26 – 1:10:55)
Well, when I went to the Eastbury meetings in 1951, there were usually 15 or 20 black
people there, typically. How many black people would you say we have in Detroit today
who are members of AA, staying sober? Oh, I wouldn’t know what figure to call on that. I
do know one thing, I think.
(1:10:57 – 1:11:18)
From the East Ferry group, there have been about 15 groups which I would say would be
black, of course. We just don’t use that anymore. Yes, you don’t call it an interracial
group anymore.
(1:11:18 – 1:11:27)
No, no, no. But there are in Detroit about 15 groups that have lots of black members that
you say started from East Ferry. Right, right, right.
(1:11:28 – 1:11:41)
So that’s been a very successful group from the standpoint of seeding other AA groups in
Detroit. I think so. Well, you’ve had a lot of experience with AA around the country.
(1:11:41 – 1:11:56)
You’ve gone to the international conventions. I saw you out of Denver in 1975. What
were some of the other conventions you went to? Fortunately, I was able to make the
first convention we ever held, which was in Cleveland.
(1:11:58 – 1:12:04)
Well, Paul Merriweather, now that was brought up. Jim said that Paul went to that
meeting. He did, he did.
(1:12:04 – 1:12:09)
So he was killed right after that. Right after that meeting. So he was killed in 1950.
(1:12:09 – 1:12:26)
Right. So do you have any other thoughts about AA or your feelings about AA that you’d
like to put on the tape? Well, there’s a whole lot that I can say. Just go ahead and say it.
(1:12:27 – 1:12:57)
Well, first of all, I have had an awful lot of experience in AA because, as you were saying
about the conference, I’ve only missed one conference that they’ve had, and that was
the one in Long Beach, California. And I’ve also had the pleasure of meeting and talking
with our founders, Bill W. and Dr. Bob Alston. I met both of those.
(1:12:58 – 1:13:09)
Did they seem to be particularly interested in you? Oh, yes. They went out of their way
to talk to you? Oh, yes, very definitely, sir. Wanted to know how the group was going?
Wanted to know, yes, yes, yes.
(1:13:10 – 1:13:23)
And I must say that I was acquainted with Bill up until his death. Did he remember you
when he would see you somewhere? Oh, yes. He remembered you by name? Oh, yes,
yes, yes.
(1:13:23 – 1:13:35)
And wonderful man, yes. You must have attended that meeting in 1951 at Cass Tech in
Detroit when he was promoting the Third Legacy. I did.
(1:13:36 – 1:13:50)
Did you hear Dr. Bob’s last talk? I certainly did. And the one thing that stuck in my mind,
so perfectly was, he said, let’s keep it simple. That was in Cleveland.
(1:13:50 – 1:13:55)
Right. I was thinking of the last talk that he gave in Detroit. I think it was in 48 or 49.
(1:13:55 – 1:14:02)
They ran it in the grapevine a couple of years ago. They have it on tape. They have it on
tape.
(1:14:02 – 1:14:09)
I don’t recall at the present time. But you had known Dr. Bob before you heard him in
Cleveland. Oh, yes, yes, oh, yes.
(1:14:09 – 1:14:16)
Because he was at the conference in Cleveland. Yes, that was his last appearance. Right,
right.
(1:14:17 – 1:14:21)
Not at the conference. Yeah, yeah, at the conference. Yeah, he gave that talk.
(1:14:21 – 1:14:27)
Yeah, that was his last appearance. That’s right. When he was very sick, but he did
manage to be there for a few minutes.
(1:14:31 – 1:14:52)
Well, I certainly appreciate your sharing your thoughts here, Tom. And if you think of
anything else later on that you would like to have put in the archives, I’ll be happy to
tape it over the phone, call you and tape it over the phone, and then we’ll send it down
to Nell. And Nell also has your address.
(1:14:52 – 1:15:07)
And if there’s anything that she would like to know from you, I’m sure that she’ll get in
touch with you. Well, she is willing to at any time. Now, Tom, after we shut off the tape,
we thought about a couple of names.
(1:15:09 – 1:15:17)
You’re meeting Sarah Klein. And then there was another lady you wanted to mention.
Would you tell the story of that? Yes, I would love to.
(1:15:17 – 1:15:36)
Her name, by the way, was Margaret Jackson, who was a member of the Northwest
Group, who would bake the cakes and come over every Friday and set up the tables and
gave me a lot of food for thought. And she was a member of the program. She was a
member of the program.
(1:15:37 – 1:15:46)
What ever happened to her? Did she pass on? No, she’s still living. And she’s still there in
Detroit? Right. Do you ever see her at all? Oh, yes, occasionally.
(1:15:46 – 1:15:52)
Not as often as I used to. So she was one of the people that helped East Ferry get
started. Now, let me mention a few more names.
(1:15:53 – 1:16:06)
They’ve come to me. See, such as Tom Hatch from Lake Orin. And, of course, Duffy, who
passed on last year.
(1:16:08 – 1:16:13)
Duffy? Yes. I guess I didn’t know him. What was his first name? Ed Duffy.
(1:16:14 – 1:16:17)
Ed Duffy. No, I didn’t know Ed. You didn’t know Ed? No.
(1:16:18 – 1:16:29)
Well, he’s a man who remains sober throughout the years. And I think he was 33 or 34
years. No, I didn’t know him for some reason.
(1:16:29 – 1:16:42)
Yeah. So those are people that just didn’t come to me when you asked me at the
beginning. When they started the group in Ann Arbor, did you go over there quite a bit?
Oh, yes.
(1:16:43 – 1:16:50)
That’s when you met Jim Fondren? Well, no. Jimmy came down to East Ferry the first
meeting. I see.
(1:16:50 – 1:17:10)
And then, of course, we would go up to Ann Arbor to his group. And, by the way, let me
say something, too. You know, Jimmy and I and Paul, we were so eager to spread this
thing around amongst blacks that we went all over the state of Michigan trying to start
groups.
(1:17:11 – 1:17:27)
And trying to get in touch with black people? Yes, yes. Such as Pontiac, Flint, and
Jackson, and around throughout the state. How would you make these contacts? Just
through the AA groups in the area? In the area, yes.
(1:17:27 – 1:17:36)
Oh, yes. And, of course, as I said, you know, the doors was open to blacks. But they
weren’t quite sure.
(1:17:36 – 1:17:37)
They weren’t. I think so. Yeah.
(1:17:38 – 1:17:43)
Yeah. Well, now we have Jackson, for example. We had Sylvanus Jones there.
(1:17:43 – 1:17:49)
Right. That just happened to get sober about the same time I moved to Jackson. But he
knew Jim.
(1:17:49 – 1:17:53)
Right. Jim had been working with him. And I had been to Jackson, too.
(1:17:54 – 1:18:10)
And then how about down here in Toledo? Did you have anything to do with getting this
group started here? Well, in Toledo, yes, I think so. Because at that time, what’s his old
name? Alan Sampson. Alan Sampson, who was a footed black down here.
(1:18:11 – 1:18:24)
And it was at that time a man was by the name of what was that man’s name? Mr.
Miller? Oh, the railroad man, the engineer? Yeah, I think so. I know you heard of him. It
wasn’t Miller, but he used to be at those meetings.
(1:18:24 – 1:18:28)
Yes. And then there was Al Fogel. Al Fogel, that’s right.
(1:18:32 – 1:18:42)
Well, we’ve got it now. The man who helped get this group started here was Mr. Allen.
It’s that one, right? Harold Allen.
(1:18:42 – 1:18:57)
He lives up near Dexter now. But he helped sponsor Alan Sampson, who was the first
black member in Toledo. And then you fellows came down for the first meeting, which
was held at the City Park Shelter House here.
(1:18:58 – 1:19:17)
And remember what year that might have been? It probably was in 50 or 51, wasn’t it?
No, this is not. Is this the anniversary? This is the anniversary. Which one is it then? Well,
we’ll figure that out when we get there tonight, and I’ll put it on the tape.
(1:19:17 – 1:19:29)
Yeah, all right. Okay. But then there was, you fellows had quite a bit of interaction with
the group here where you went back and forth to meetings, and they came up to Detroit
and so on.
(1:19:29 – 1:19:39)
So there was a lot of cross-fertilization among the different interracial groups in this
area. Interracial groups in this area. Well, very good.
(1:19:41 – 1:20:01)
What, Emerson Ellis? Charlie Newcomb. Charlie Newcomb, that’s right. He was a big help
to you.
(1:20:01 – 1:20:11)
Yeah, do you got anything on tape about him? You can put that on. Well, I didn’t. I don’t
know if they have anything on Charlie or not, but why don’t you just say what you knew
about Charlie.
(1:20:11 – 1:20:15)
All right. Charlie was not a black member. No, no, no, no.
(1:20:15 – 1:20:34)
But he was a help to your group. He was a help to our group. In fact, I might say when
Paul was killed, which is he was on his way to Blitzfield to an AA meeting, which was held
in Charlie Newcomb’s home.
(1:20:34 – 1:20:38)
That’s right. I remember that that’s where they had the meetings, yes. We remember
that, yes.
(1:20:38 – 1:20:57)
So that’s where Paul was killed. And then, of course, we had a lot of contact with
Newcomb because we even went to New York to one of Bill Wilson’s dinners back in the
early 50s together. Oh, you went with Charlie and his wife there.
(1:20:57 – 1:21:07)
Yeah, we all, yeah, a group of us, all of us went there, old, old, and all of us. So he was a
tremendous help. Yeah, Charlie was a good AA.
(1:21:07 – 1:21:13)
I remember him well, yeah. He’s been dead 10 or 15 years, I suppose. Right, yeah.
(1:21:13 – 1:21:22)
And until recently, they continued to have the meetings there in his home in Blitzfield.
And then finally, I guess Mrs. Newcomb couldn’t either. She sold the house or something.
(1:21:22 – 1:21:37)
So they don’t have them now. How old were the people? Do you know them? Yes, I knew
Charlie. You did? Yeah, they had the Onstead anniversary, I think, in 1953, and Bill
Dodson and his wife came, and Bill was the speaker at Onstead.
(1:21:38 – 1:21:47)
And so Charlie, they stayed at Charlie’s home, I think, and Charlie drove them over to
Onstead and everything. And we called Charlie the mayor of Blitzfield. I think that was
just kind of a joke.
(1:21:48 – 1:21:54)
I don’t think he ever was the mayor. He was. Yes, I attended meetings at Blitzfield.
(1:21:54 – 1:22:03)
You did? I saw Charlie around quite a bit. Well, that’s right. And he did very well in
business, yeah.
(1:22:04 – 1:22:19)
Well, thank you very much, Tom and Ed and Joe and Jim. And I hope that this tape gives
them some information down there. And so with that, we’ll shut off the tape and we’ll go
to the City Park anniversary.
(1:22:19 – 1:22:23)
All right, very good. Thank you. The pleasure has been all mine.
(1:22:24 – 1:22:25)
Thanks, Tom.